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Thread: And thats the loophole in the NFL Rulebook

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    I BELIEVE! Arrow Challenge 2 Champion Darrelle Revis's Avatar
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    Thumbs down And thats the loophole in the NFL Rulebook

    On the Patriots last drive, not on the last play (since game cant end on a defensive penalty) but on a few of their last plays the Giants should have put their entire 53 man roster on the field to play defense in order to milk the clock. Sounds crazy right? But its true. Ive said it all year, it doesnt make any sense how there is no such thing as a a pre-snap too many men on the field penalty on the defense. Its only on the defense once the ball is snapped.


    To combat this, the best the Patriots can do is snap the ball and spike it which would run 2 seconds off the clock. Do that enough times and you leave the Patriots with 1 play left to score (since game cant end on a defensive penalty).

    As you saw, this was critical on the Pats last drive. With 17 seconds left, they had a play run 8 seconds off the clock where the Giants have 12 men on the field. 5 Yard penalty on the Giants. But good play for the Giants! Why wouldnt they trade the 5 yards for an 8 second runoff?

    To combat this loophole, either:
    A. Make too many men on the field a pre snap penalty on defenses (just like it is on the offense), or
    B. As my roomate suggested, make too many men on the field penalty in the last 2 minutes of the half, so that the offense should be awarded the yards AND the clock should revert to the amount of time that was left before the play started.
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    Super Moderator Boik14's Avatar
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    Astute point! That play alone is a reason the pats lost. Lost 8 seconds and couldn't get close enough to take more then 2 shots. Oh well. I'm not exactly crying for the Cheatriots



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    Yeah that was pretty dumb.

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    I was saying the exact same thing as it happened. I'd have thrown 15 men out there and give them 5 yards while the clock bled.
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    Chaotic Neutral Paul 13's Avatar
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    But the 12th man had no affect on the specific play involved. It was Tuck (IIRC) walking off the field that was the 12th guy when the ball was snapped. Is it a loophole that should be closed? Absolutely. Did it cost the Pats the game? Absolutely not.
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    Premium Member padre31's Avatar
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    Personally I think the Defense should take the penalty when the offense has them in bad personnel packages and they are using the no huddle to prevent subs, makes more sense then letting the opponent score or using a timeout.

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    I agree 100%. The rule should change to 5 yard penalty plus the time lost

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    It can't be yards plus time lost. Because then your not only giving them that, your giving them a absolute free untimed play basically. What's to stop the offenses running around for 2 minutes just trying to gain more then 5 yards? Laterals and stupid stuff like that....no that would ruin it. Keep it how it is. Most of the time to many men doesn't effect the offense, other then giving them a free play, because the 12th man is usually running toward the side line.

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    'Parcells' Guy Laces Out's Avatar
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    The Patriots poor use of a challenge sure didn't help them. Nor their ability to execute(read:catch the ball) when the chips were down. Perhaps I am being realistic?

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    Except for the fact of this rule.

    Rule 12-3-2."The defense shall not commit successive or continued fouls to prevent a score."

    The Pats would have then been given a TD.

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    Premium Member DeDolfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrelle Revis View Post
    On the Patriots last drive, not on the last play (since game cant end on a defensive penalty) but on a few of their last plays the Giants should have put their entire 53 man roster on the field to play defense in order to milk the clock. Sounds crazy right? But its true. Ive said it all year, it doesnt make any sense how there is no such thing as a a pre-snap too many men on the field penalty on the defense. Its only on the defense once the ball is snapped.


    To combat this, the best the Patriots can do is snap the ball and spike it which would run 2 seconds off the clock. Do that enough times and you leave the Patriots with 1 play left to score (since game cant end on a defensive penalty).

    As you saw, this was critical on the Pats last drive. With 17 seconds left, they had a play run 8 seconds off the clock where the Giants have 12 men on the field. 5 Yard penalty on the Giants. But good play for the Giants! Why wouldnt they trade the 5 yards for an 8 second runoff?

    To combat this loophole, either:
    A. Make too many men on the field a pre snap penalty on defenses (just like it is on the offense), or
    B. As my roomate suggested, make too many men on the field penalty in the last 2 minutes of the half, so that the offense should be awarded the yards AND the clock should revert to the amount of time that was left before the play started.
    But there is not too many men on the field until the ball is snapped. You have until then to get off the filed. On O, it's a penalty for having too many men in the huddle, not too many on the filed.
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    Insensitive to the Touch HardKoreXXX's Avatar
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    I started a thread on this (just bumped it) a few months ago. It's called The Polish Goal Line Defense and was first used by Buddy Ryan. Major loophole.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Laces Out View Post
    The Patriots poor use of a challenge sure didn't help them. Nor their ability to execute(read:catch the ball) when the chips were down. Perhaps I am being realistic?
    I thought thats was a good challenge...if reversed games pretty much over

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    How is it a loophole? It could happen MAYBE one time then an offense will identify all the players on the field, take the snap, take a knee and achieve their five yards in one second.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aqua4Ever04 View Post
    How is it a loophole? It could happen MAYBE one time then an offense will identify all the players on the field, take the snap, take a knee and achieve their five yards in one second.
    You're almost guaranteed to kill 8 seconds with it. There's no way in Hell an offense is going to notice that pre-snap and spike the ball. Even if they did notice, they're most likely going to take a shot to get a free play. When there's 20 second left in the game, it's a pretty nice advantage for the defense to have.

    The only thing that could be done, would be to put the time back on the clock and replay the down. OR give the offense a completely untimed down. Meaning, the clock would not start for next play, at all. Basketball has rules to prevent teams from doing similar things (you can't foul a guy without the ball in the last two minutes, etc.)


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    Season Ticket Holder Firesole's Avatar
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    You can't commit that foul twice in a row. The 2nd time is a 15 yard penalty and no time run off the clock.

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    Resident Pats fan. McLovin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firesole View Post
    You can't commit that foul twice in a row. The 2nd time is a 15 yard penalty and no time run off the clock.
    Yea but an 8 second run off when there is 20-30 seconds left is huge. you really dont need a second time.

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    They could make it a 15 yard personal foul if it occurs within the last minute of a half. Problem solved.


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    Season Ticket Holder Firesole's Avatar
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    The refs have the right to determine if that strategy is a palpably unfair act, and according to the rules book, a touchdown could have been awarded to the Patriots had the Giants used this Polish Defense

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    'Parcells' Guy Laces Out's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jt0323 View Post
    I thought thats was a good challenge...if reversed games pretty much over

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    What about that play looked remotely worth challenging? Especially when Bellicheck was standing right in front of the play. Instead of keeping the timeout in his back pocket(which he ended up needing in a bad way), he just wasted it on a play that wasn't even close. Poor management IMO

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