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Draft Winds

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Boomer, Feb 15, 2011.

  1. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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  2. finsincebirth

    finsincebirth Well-Known Member

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    I'm about halfway through and the research you guys did was amazing
     
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  3. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Great Analysis, indeed! Its nice when someone puts a lot of time and effort (Boomer & CK) to back up an opinion that is really just based on pure speculation and optimism (Gardenhead).
     
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  4. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Great job guys. Great read, great way for me to kill time at work. Can't imagine the amount of work you guys put into this, but its fantastic. After reading this, I think I definately feel a bit more comfortable if Cam ends up with the phins. I'm still skeptical, but I'm more optimistic now too. The thought of us drafting him in the first, and him not panning out though for whatever reason, absolutely scares the hell out of me.
     
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  5. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    GREAT REPORT! However, i see no way that our Phins will have an option on picking him. I may be wrong but, seriously doubt it.
     
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  6. Tone_E

    Tone_E Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Soooooooo, how do you guys feel about Newton?
     
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  7. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I appreciate the time and effort you guys put into this article (and your research), but, respectfully, you left out one of the most important aspects of an NFL QB's play: brains (including mental strength and the ability to make decisions quickly & efficiently). That's a large question mark IMO.

    You also say that he has "quick feet", but I disagree. Yes, he can run a 4.5 forty, but that doesn't mean he has quick feet when it comes to dropping back, setting up, and effectively & consistently squaring them to his target. There's a reason there aren't many 6'6 QBs in the NFL, and that's greatly due to their long legs slowing them down in the pocket.... and in a league where every 10th of a second counts, it can impact results. In college he can be an accurate passer when he's afforded more time, but IMO this is another question mark at the next level.

    Flacco & Freeman are exceptions to the height problem b/c their feet <while dropping back, going through progression, and releasing the ball> are as quick as most average height QBs. I don't see that with Newton; with Cam, I see a 6'6 guy out there. I see a guy who, while the action is moving faster and coming at him quicker, will potentially have too many passes sailing or off target when he's speeding up his arm delivery in order to make up for his slower footwork. If he only has X amount of time to release the ball in the NFL, then I could see his slower feet causing him to rush a lot of passes (which doesn't help when he throws a lot from the wrist). I agree that footwork can be coached if the footwork is poor, but slow feet can be a different story.

    I'd be hesitant to take him at 15, let alone trading up for him. Not an insult to your work, rather just 1 guy's opinion. Plus, the look on his face <when he realized that little ole PAC 10 Oregon was beating him up> took me aback. To me, that was a look of a guy who actually thought he was superman and now realized he's fallible. The PAC 10 is no NFL, so I question how he'll respond when he's getting beaten up even more when he uses his feet to run. His whole world and perception of football is going to change the first time he's REALLY thumped like never before. How is Cam going to react when he realizes for the first time that he actually has to be a QB first and foremost who can't always rely on his feet to bail him out? That's a serious mental battle he'll have to face and overcome, and I don't just "assume" that he'll do so.
     
  8. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    kudos Friend ToddsPhins:
    interesting response & observations, gutsy call straight up
    just want the front office to take a clear & objective look @ the guy
    if the franchise QB is not there, this is not the time for guess work
    too many holes to fix on offense, next year should sport a better selection
    better to bring in a veteran on the cheap & allow for open competition

    anybody remember JaMarcus Russell? well, he's available.
     
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  9. bamadolphin

    bamadolphin New Member

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    hes jamarcus russell with a over bearing father
     
  10. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    yeah, that's the one, friend bamadolphin:
    6'6" & 240lbs
    can run like a deer & has an arm like a cannon
    extremely accurate passer, whatever
    was the Raider's first pick & overall #1 in his draft
    had some adjustment problems in the NFL
    but he's available
    maybe we should have a good look @ him
    before committing an entire draft to Newton
     
  11. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Jamarcus Russel wasn't nearly as good at running
     
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  12. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    Friend Dol-Fan Dupree:
    think about it, Jamarcus was the the total package coming out of college.
    could have written basically the same things about him as Newton & then some
    & Russel is available, no picks involved, free as a bird, all we have to do is sign him
    as a matter of fact
    recently read something about him being on the dolphin radar
    he did have a little problem with drugs after leaving the Raiders, but I'm sure that's all behind him now.
     
  13. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    :pity:
     
  14. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    No, you couldn't. Russell was a much different quarterback. Other than being big and talented the similarities are pretty much moot. Russell's arm puts Newton's to shame. It isn't even close. Russell has one of the best arms I have ever seen, period.

    Russell wasn't nearly the threat running the ball. He was hard to tackle because he was gigantic, however wasn't the type to run for a hundred yards. In fact Russell and Kyle Boeller have more incommon than Russell and Newton.

    I do not see anyone comparing Boeller to Newton.
     
  15. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    every body has an opinion
    that's what makes the forum work
    fact is, he's available
    & they are comparable items
     
  16. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    yes and fact is, he is a completely different type of player. In a completely different situation. Getting russell does not mean NOT getting newton
     
  17. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    JaMarcus Russell.

    Jesus. I've heard it all now.
     
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  18. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    Friend Dol-Fan Dupree, you're absolutely right.
    it would mean getting a comparable QB with NFL experience on the cheap which would allow us to fill in some holes on offense.
    why not a second chance @ redemption? can't deny the talent, Russel has an upside & you know what you're getting.
    let Henne, Russell & Thigpen compete for the start with an offensive line & running game to support them.
    if it doesn't work out, next year should be a good year for QB's
    just a thought. we'll only know after the fact anyway
     
  19. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    unlike Simon Cowell, you haven't heard it all, you just think you have & Jesus has nothing to do with it
     
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  20. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Why is Cam Newton's brains a "large question mark"? Is his brains question mark any larger than Blaine Gabbert or Jake Locker's brains question mark? Please explain this.
     
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  21. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    But he did have a better arm coming out.
     
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  22. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    ToddPhins, please answer my question as to why Cam Newton's brains are a large question mark. Why aren't the other QB's brains a large question mark?
     
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  23. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    They didn't get caught for cheating IIRC..... and I'm not sure they've had as many boned headed problems involving poor decision making (but that's neither here nor there b/c those guys have their own set of question marks). If Cam doesn't make the best decisions or appear to always know the difference between right & wrong outside of the game, then how are we supposed to trust that he'll practice it IN the game at a level where brains and decision making are EXTREMELY important? Seriously, he'll be in charge of a $200 million dollar offense. That's not like managing a Blockbuster store.

    Added: I'm also not sure how he'll respond to serious fan criticism. Even Falcon fans were openly calling for Matt Ryan's head. How will a guy like Cam, who seems to bask in the limelight and adoration of his fans, react when some of these fans turn on him or stop cherishing him? Will this turn him into a Vince Young and make him another head case? We don't yet know that b/c that scenario has yet to be presented. We cant assume he'll handle it well. People made that assumption about Young, and they were wrong. How much his psyche revolves around the love from his fans scares me to be honest. It can turn on him, just as loving a girl can cause you mental angst & depression if she suddenly becomes uninterested. Being a QB at the NFL level is more than just "playing football"..... a lot more. The mental side of it can make or break a guy...... or even crush him. If we're talking about college football, then he's the first guy on my team.

    I'm not saying he wont succeed, but I am saying there are some red flags IMO. I love the dedication that he's put into becoming the best he can be, but that still doesn't translate to great on-field decision making etc. Again, not saying he cant do it, but I am saying it makes me apprehensive and needs to be thoroughly checked out.
     
  24. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Thee...Ohio State University
    I see what your doing here..
     
  25. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    Super great write up :up: and Thank You.

    I am in the minority of people who like this kid. Unfortunately, no way in hell is this kid at number 15 when we pick in the draft. People can say what they want, he will not last until our first pick in the draft.
     
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  26. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    The only thing I have heard about the question on his decision making was at Auburn he mainly had one target on each play and threw it if he was open or if not open, just tucked it and ran the ball. Some NFL pundits or whatever they are called, feel he will have a problem reading the complex NFL defenses and having to look for multiple receivers instead of just one. Thats what I heard on his mental ability.
     
  27. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Much better. I have not seen a better arm.
     
  28. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    read we've had him on the radar for quite some time & will have him in for a work out soon
     
  29. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Arm strength is almost most overrated thing next to that dreaded forty yard dash.
     
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  30. uab_phin

    uab_phin New Member

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    I definitely hear what you're saying and agree with a good amount of your original post, but while Cam hasn't had to face that much heat from fans, he and Vince Young have taken very different paths to the NFL. Vince Young was THE guy in Texas high school football and went to the team that he cheered for all his life and did not go very far from home to live in the limelight. Young also did not run into much controversy during his career at Texas.

    Cam on the other hand has had to spend time separated from his support system for him to grow as a person, he also had to deal with a great deal of controversy through his college career and this year he put together one of the greatest years for a college QB ever. He has shown the ability to mesh with so many different types of personalities during his 3 championship runs.

    I fully agree that there are some concerns, but I don't believe if he melts down it will be to the monumental proportions that Vince Young has.
     
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  31. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    The other aspects that throws up the caution flag is how well he can mentally deal with adversity (including the adversity of no longer being able to use his natural talents as a crutch when things become difficult).

    We cant just assume that he'll handle the emotional aspect of the NFL transition just b/c he was a great college QB. There are a few areas of concern. The one adversity example is cheating on a test(s) when things got tough rather than studying harder. A second example is leaving UF rather than facing the adversity along with attempting to beat out Tebow. The last example is: How well will he handle the emotional adversity of no longer being regarded as a God when his fans begin doubting & criticizing him when he most likely fails to become a top 12 QB after his first 2 seasons? It took Matt Ryan & Flacco 3 years to reach this level, and they were more NFL ready than Cam is. Henne is criticized heavily after 2 years of starting and he was a late 2nd rounder, so how severe would it be for a top draft pick?

    Cam relishes in the adoration of his fans as much as anyone I've ever seen. For the past 2 years he's been the apple of their eye and literally treated like a God, and as such was given the highest rookie endorsement deal of all time. It's obvious that he's an emotional, passionate guy who cares about people..... and it's obvious that he cares greatly about what his fans think of him. You only have to watch him score a TD or win a game at Auburn to see how much he lives for their attention to the highest degree as he's rolling around in the stands with them. It's almost like he's developed a relationship with them. This relationship and tremendous care that he has for them can end up emotionally hurting him just as it can in any relationship. That's just a basic psychological fact.

    If you sit on your couch and accidentally squash your pet hamster, you'll get over it within hours or days. Conversely, if you sit down and accidentally smother your year old lovable puppy, then it can emotionally damage you. The greater the emotional tie, the more damaging it can be when that tie is broken or compromised. Cam's love of his fan's attention is no different. If he sees them lose faith in him, he's the kind of guy who can potentially become damaged by it and ultimately lose confidence in himself. I'm not saying that this will happen, but I am saying that Cam is a greater risk for it.
     
  32. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    That's true, but I didn't say arm strength. I said better arm. lol.
     
  33. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    Bc he's black.


    That was where you wanted this to go, right?

    Just making sure.
     
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  34. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    [​IMG]
     
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  35. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Good points, and I could agree with much of this...... but I still believe there can be a potential parallel to Vince Young in this regard.

    If a player has grown immensely attached to his fans' adoration, does it matter if it's from 7 years worth verses 2 years? I don't necessarily see a distinction. IMO someone can fall equally in love with something within 2 years as they could in 7 years if the experience is emotionally strong, rewarding, or motivating enough. A year is enough time to make it an emotional drug for him..... and even though he wasn't Vince Young in high school, he was highly regarded FWIW. Also, with him being the best player on the field, it's possible that players would be trying harder to mesh well with him than vice versa. However, it's not the players I'm worried about.

    The only real adversity he had to face was at UF...... and he handled it by removing himself from the situation rather than working harder and facing it head on. That worries me a little. I do understand that it's possible for him to have learned from this adversity, although I'm not sure if he did. If he were a guard, I'd be less concerned with it, but a QB is a different ball of wax.

    And, true, he did spend time away from his support system, but at the same time his fan base, coaching staff, and teammates became a substitute support system. I'm not pegging the kid as a bust, but he does have some proving to do, and until he does, I'm a little apprehensive about him.
     
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  36. uab_phin

    uab_phin New Member

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    No doubt some parallels, but I think fewer than it would seem at first glance.

    The media feeding frenzy this year has to count as adversity, very few have had to suffer through similar questioning as a semi pro ::anyone anyone:: and I meant his time in Blinn as the time he separated himself, it really sounds like he's a different person now.

    Either way I think someone will make a major play for him at the beginning of the 1st and I don't think it will be us.
     
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  37. bakedmatt

    bakedmatt Well-Known Member

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    Too long. :tantrum:
     
  38. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I'm trying to be as nice as possible about this, but anyone who thinks that Jamarcus Russell and Cam Newton are similar prospects should slap themselves whenever they even think about giving an opinion about a QB.
     
  39. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Stop race baiting.

    QBs intelligence gets questioned all the time. Not just with black QBs.

    You're just hyper sensitive.
     
  40. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    Friend Rafael, hard & perhaps badly chosen words. did you actually read the comments I posted? comparable implies suitable for comparison. I didn't use the word similar, you did. I posted to show that we had another example of a big, strong, fast QB with an excellent arm available & we should consider him in every respect in evaluating our current situation. about slapping this & slapping that: do you think you're posting is superior to mine, that your opinions are more valid? did you find the Holly Grail of forum-posting, somewhere? have you come down from the mountain to enlighten & chastise the non-believers amongst your fellow members? think about it, very bad choice of words. and Raphael, you were not trying to be as nice as possible. the words arrogant, condescending, hubris all come to mind but there was nothing nice about the post.

    the comments in question:

    1) yeah, that's the one, friend bamadolphin:
    6'6" & 240lbs
    can run like a deer & has an arm like a cannon
    extremely accurate passer, whatever
    was the Raider's first pick & overall #1 in his draft
    had some adjustment problems in the NFL
    but he's available
    maybe we should have a good look @ him
    before committing an entire draft to Newton

    (big, strong, had the credentials, could run & possessed an excellent arm, maybe before committing an entire draft to Newton, we should have a look @ him)


    2) Friend Dol-Fan Dupree:
    think about it, Jamarcus was the the total package coming out of college.
    could have written basically the same things about him as Newton & then some
    & Russel is available, no picks involved, free as a bird, all we have to do is sign him
    as a matter of fact
    recently read something about him being on the dolphin radar
    he did have a little problem with drugs after leaving the Raiders, but I'm sure that's all behind him now.

    (red flags: had problems on & off the field, the guy was a bust with the Raiders & they had to let him go)

    3) Friend Dol-Fan Dupree, you're absolutely right.
    it would mean getting a comparable QB with NFL experience on the cheap which would allow us to fill in some holes on offense.
    why not a second chance @ redemption? can't deny the talent, Russel has an upside & you know what you're getting.
    let Henne, Russell & Thigpen compete for the start with an offensive line & running game to support them.
    if it doesn't work out, next year should be a good year for QB's

    (this has been my basic point of all along, the veteran QB could just as well be Kolb as Russel, as long as it is a very price friendly arrangement)

    may I suggest: always post the thread, not the poster :yes:
     

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