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Why can't Brian Hartline be a "number one" receiver?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Rocky Raccoon, Mar 27, 2010.

  1. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Just about everyone here is throwing a fit about us not going out and getting us a "number one" receiver, but how do we know we don't already have one on our roster?

    When I watch Brian Hartline play, I see a guy who has what you want in a top receiver. He gets after it. He has good hands, good speed, is aggressive, strong and tough, etc. He can pick up YAC and make the plays downfield. Also came up with quite a few clutch 3rd down receptions. All of this, mind you, as a rookie.

    So why not?

    I've been one of the very few here who believes in our receiving corps. And I see a guy in Hartline who had a very good rookie season to build on. You add in Bess making the plays underneath and Ginn who can stretch the field and it doesn't look bad to me at all.

    Maybe I'm too optimistic. Maybe I'm crazy.

    But maybe we already have what we need to get the job done.

    Maybe.
     
  2. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    He's a good player.......should develop into a nice #2 WR. He just lacks the physical gifts needed to be a true #1. A number one should "wow" you with his talent and tools
     
  3. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    I don't know man. I just don't understand the notion of needing a number one receiver to win.

    The Saints have good receivers, but I wouldn't call any of them "wow" players. During the Patriots' dynasty run, who was their "wow" receiver? They didn't have one.

    I'm not saying having one of those guys wouldn't be awesome, but I just don't see it as a must to win.
     
  4. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    i still believe the #1 WR tag that is thrown around too often might be a little over rated.
     
  5. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    They both had a better crew than we do.....

    It's not just about "need".........it's how well we could make use of a play maker at WR and TE. We have everything else in place. This offense could be really special.... 35 points a game type special.
     
  6. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    yep cause we all love a shootout:up:

    remember we have to try and stop someone :wink2:
     
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  7. Larry Little

    Larry Little Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Oh, yeah... the names Brian Hartline and Andre Johnson should be synonymous. :rolleyes:

    Hartline is good, and he'll get better. However, the chances that he'll ever be an honest-to-goodness #1 WR in the NFL are about as slim as Nicole Ritchie. IMO, it will never, ever happen. No offense to Hartline.
     
  8. TiP54

    TiP54 Bad Reputation

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    Too small and too slow.
    I love the guy, and he is great, and will only get better.
    ...but he never will be somebody like Andre Johnson or Megatron or Brandon Marshall.
     
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  9. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    hartline isnt a typical #1 as most like to call it
    but the he is here and i like his chances of being a quality WR
    never like to talk about other situations where players who arent here develop
    but think about miles austin. undrafted st guy who developed into a good WR
    maybe a #1. dispute that.
    turned roy williams into an afterthought. :wink2:
     
  10. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    When did I compare Hartline to Andre Johnson? I didn't, and never would. Johnson is a top 2 receiver in this league. I just said that I believe in Hartline and the other receivers on our roster to get the job done.

    Apparently you NEED a "number one" in order to win though. I mean, just look at all those playoff wins Andre Johnson has.....
     
  11. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Yeah if you're stuck in the 90's playing Wanny ball maybe




    It's easier to play defense when you know your offense can score at will.....ask the current SB champs




    Boy, you sure sold me...lol
     
  12. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    saints could have lost. manning driving
    ever see a bigger play from a defense in the SB
    have you ever seen manning do that i havent ever
    d made the play and won the game :up:
     
  13. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    I'm pretty sure there was more than just that one play but that wouldn't be of any help to your argument...

    But if you want to break it down......it's not just defense. It's what's important on defense and that's defending the pass.....why you say? Because it's now a passing league
     
  14. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    and we stunk it up against the pass last season
    you know it and i know it
    hell everyone knows it
    putting up points against the opponent doesnt mean a win unless you stop someone
    saints did that against a great offense in the SB
    with a pick six
    regardless of whether this is a passing league or not
    we saw the best QB in the game right now lose a big game on a big turnover and a great defensive play
    a play we will be watching a lot during this offseason
     
  15. lbmclean_sj

    lbmclean_sj New Member

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    if you consider Miles Austin a #1 or Boldin a #1 at one point, then Hartline has a small chance

    he would have to put on 10 pounds and be a supersized welker with Austin's YAC ability

    odds are he won't
     
  16. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Yes we did......maybe it had something to do with two rookie corners and our staff's brilliant idea to play 2 SS's

    Which is why our priority on defense should have been FS...
     
  17. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    you speak as if i dont know that :up:
     
  18. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    There are maybe a half dozen super top tier wr's. Brian Hartline won't be one of those. But I think he can develop into a solid even pro bowl caliber WR. He's an all around solid receiver who is driven and frighteningly intelligent. And he's not that slow having run a 4.52 in the 40 yard dash at the combine. Personally I think he's a much better overall receiver than Ted Ginn.

    One thing I notice is that Hartline, Turner and Bess all have fast 3 cone drill times. Maybe the FO values that quickness over top end speed?
     
  19. krypto

    krypto Banned

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    I'm tired of hearing "this is a passing league" and as someone mentioned, defending the pass is the more important facet of defense now. EVERY coach will tell you the run is just as important as the pass unless you're talking to the coaches of the great QB's in the league right now. Anyone with ANY football knowledge will tell you that the run sets up the play action which will in turn, take the pressure off the QB and more often than not, have a good passing game. And seriously, this is the pro's. You can't say stopping one part of an offense is more important than the other. Because believe it or not, teams run passing plays AND running plays in practice.
     
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  20. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Hartline isn't a mismatch for a defense. That's what makes a #1 WR. It has to be a guy that the defense will fear enough to rarely leave one on one. And when they do, he has to make them pay. Hartline is developing nicely, but is unlikely to ever make defenses fear him that much.

    The Saints had several players that were difficult physical match-ups for defenses. At WR and TE they had Colston, Meacham and Shockey. And NE did usually have at least one pro bowl WR and they had all world QB. Maybe if Henne develops into Brady then our passing game will be comparable. IMO our odds are of finding a #1 WR better than they are of Henne becoming Brady.
     
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  21. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    "The game has changed, the rules have changed," he said. "I think right now, I hate to say this, but the running game is a complement. It's not the foundation that it once was. You look at the last three AFC teams that were in the Super Bowl, that's Pittsburgh, New England and Indianapolis. They're all passing teams. The running game is a complement."

    http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/scott-toole/index.ssf/2009/10/post.html

    You should probably tell Bill Cowher that he has no football knowledge b/c that's his quote. :lol:
     
  22. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Especially the ones that just played in the SB :up:
     
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  23. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    How many receivers in the league today are in Andre Johnson's class? Larry Fitzgerald and maybe Calvin Johnson? There are a lot of teams who's #1 receiver is far from synonymous with Andre Johnson.
     
  24. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Hartline's 3 cone was outstanding at the combine. He tied for 2nd amongst WRs with his time of 6.65. To compare to our rookie corners, Davis did a 6.75 and Smith a 6.92. From what I can tell, only 2 corners beat Hartline's cone time. Malcolm Jenkins 6.59 and Sherrod Martin 6.60. One safety beat his time. David Bruton 6.60

    Davone Bess had a 6.97 3 cone time, which isn't bad, but not great either. His most redeeming time there was his 10 yd split of 1.53, which was the same as DeSean Jackson. From that point on though of course, Jackson left him in the dust. It does indicate Bess gets to full speed quickly though.

    I have never been able to find a 3 cone time on Turner. He didn't do the drill at either the combine or USC Pro Day.
     
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  25. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    You should make that quote your signature block. It would drive KB crazy. :lol:
    If you don't want to, would you mind if I used it? I'm due for something new there.
     
  26. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I think it is too soon to say for certain how good Hartline can be. I don't think we should count on it totally, but he may surprise us this season as much as he did last season. His rookie totals were better than Brandon Marshall's were. More catches, better ypc, more TDs.
    I still expect we will address WR at some early point in the draft, even if not the 1st round, then 2nd or 3rd. If we find a good young receiver in the draft and Hartline continues to develop, we should be in decent shape. Then again too, maybe this will be the year Patrick Turner shows something. Mark Duper did not have any catches as a rookie either. Just saying...we should not pin the bust label to Turner too soon.
     
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  27. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Go for it and have fun. :up:
     
  28. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I didn't like Turner coming out so I won't change my opinion until he gives me a reason to.

    As for Hartline, it's possible, heck most anything is possible. But it's not likely. He just doesn't have anything in his game that makes him that mismatch for the defense.
     
  29. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    Even if Hartline did become a #1 in the sense that you're describing it, that shouldn't stop the Dolphins from improving the passing game. None of the teams in the playoffs stood pat - every one of them spent draft picks or traded for players even if they already had a #1 WR or an outstanding running game.
     
  30. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    Yeah, it's probably the physical talent he lacks (in terms of physically overmatching a corner)... Maybe if 6'4" Patrick Turner had Hartline's skill-set and heart...
     
  31. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    If Turner had Hartline's skill set, he'd still be a marginal receiver. Hartline is nothing more than a #4 with potential right now. His ceiling is higher than Camarillo's, but that isn't really saying much. 16.3 YPC is very good, especially for a rookie, but it's a pretty big stretch to project Hartline as a game-breaking receiver for the next ten years as the OP is doing. Heck, right now it's a stretch to project Hartline as a #2.

    IMO, if Hartline puts up in the neighborhood of 750 yards and 6 TDs next season, then we can begin talking about him as a #2 WR, preferably one who can output 800 yards and 6-8 TDs for many years to come. But sophomore slumps are real, so Hartline has to go against history to do this.
     
  32. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I disagree with that notion Rafi, Hartline has several things in his skillset that could make him a #1 type of Wr, short area quickness, toughness, will fight for the ball,

    Brian Hartline just has the knack for making plays, he has really good football instincts, that is probably his strongest asset.

    Recall the ball that had been intercepted that Hartline just snatched away from the Db? THAT is Brian Hartline to a "T".

    What he lacks is physical maturity, he came out as a Junior and to my eyes he really hasn't filled out yet, and he benefitted the most from Ted Ginn drawing double coverage, what would happen if he is doubled is a unknown, a good #1 wr can still make plays even when doubled and Hartline hasn't shown he could even attempt that let alone actually do it.
     
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  33. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    Brian Hartline is well on his way to becoming a #1
    fully expect him to reach a legitimate #1 status by his 3rd year
    stepping up big time in 2010 as a PlayMaker & serious threat
    got all the tools & intangibles to make it as an elite WR in the NFL
     
  34. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    This debate is similar to some of the John Beck debates I remember. Some of us felt we REALLY needed to draft or sign another QB. Some felt John Beck could still be the answer and that we didn't need another QB.

    Granted Hartline has done more in his one season in the NFL than John Beck ever did, but the fact remains that in this league you cannot assume that current players will develop into studs unless they have already proven they can be that stud. Did the Cowboys assume Miles Austin would develop into a stud? Nope. They picked up Roy Williams. Hartline had a great rookie campaign, but he did not demonstrate that he has the skillset that will cause opposing defenses to have to worry about him on every down, and gameplan around him. I'd love to see him prove me wrong and become that guy, but I think the deck is stacked against him.
     
  35. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    just watch his star rise, won't take long. Hartline is the RealDeal :yes: you'll see it in training camp & preseason, then watch him explode onto the gridiron w/ our first regular game of the season. Brian is an evident star in the making & w/ each passing day, it will become obvious & undeniable to everyone
     
  36. Disnardo

    Disnardo Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Wishfull thinking Jets... of course it could be done, it about 4 years...

    If we were to head in that direction, you would have to change a lot of the Offensive philosyphy of the team. We would need to address most of the personnel on the OL/WR/TE/RB as well as a OC that has a game plan for getting it done... We won't need an elite RB either...

    You would/might also need to address personnel in the DL to make them as skilled and light as the DL of the Colts...Keeping you from shoot outs...

    After reviewing the Offensive weapons on teams making the Conference Championship games, in the last 5 years (2005-2009), this nugget came out...

    12 (60%) out of 20 teams had at least one, 1,000+ yards Receiver...
    10 (50%) out of 20 teams had a 1,000+ yds RB...

    In the SB's the odds favored the Receivers...

    7 (70%) out of 10 teams had at least one, 1,000+ yds Receiver...
    5 (50%) out of 10 teams had a 1,000+ yds RB...

    The SB Winners...

    4 (80%) out of 5 teams had at least one, 1,000+ yds Receiver...
    3 (60%) out of 5 teams had a 1,000+ yds RB...

    Only 2 teams of the last 5 SB Winners, had a 1,000+ yds WR/RB combination and they were 2007 Giant, and 2006 Colts...

    The last SB Winner that did not have a 1,000+ yds Receiver was the 2005 Steelers...

    The last SB Winner that had a 1,000+ yds RB was the 2007 Giants...

    I would like to see Hartline and Turner (if he ever gets on the field) together, and see how they attack the Defenses, but we are not an attacking team, at least we have not shown it yet, because IMo we don't prepare for that...

    Putting the ball up when you are 2 TDs behind and not excecuting well does not mean we don't have the skilled players, it is just that we don't prepare and or gameplan for it, IMHO...

    Do we have the quality personnel to get it done via the pass, probably so, but this Coaching staff wants to run a BALL CONTROL game, and scoring quickly in a short time might not be what they gameplan for when playing against high power Offenses... like the ones we played against in 2009...
     
  37. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    I think we could definitely have a staff that is comparable to what NYG or the Saints have - in that we have a bunch of solid guys without a spectacular #1.

    But I don't see Hartline as having the speed to be a #1. He doesn't seem to have that second gear to get open when the ball is in the air. His two longest receptions were the slant he took 67 yards after the catch and the bomb that was picked off but bobbled and he ended up with.

    I think he can be a damn good receiver - and if we had 2 Hartlines out there I think we would have a pretty decent WR corps, but I just don't see the breakaway speed to be a #1.
     
  38. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=-

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    He has yet to fumble 3 snaps at the pro-level.
     
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  39. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    Remember, the Giants built their cast of receivers around Plaxico Burress: if not for him shooting himself in the thigh, he'd still be reeling in TDs. Also, it's not as if they've got just a bunch of jobbers. Their Steve Smith is better than anyone we have, Manningham is pretty talented save for a lack of substance between the ears, and Nicks is a stud in the making. I'd trade our WRs for theirs any day.

    My theory about us Dolphins fans having been so long without elite receiver play that we've forgotten what it looks like is slowly being proven true...
     
  40. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I think that's the second time in this thread someone has suggested the Saints don't have a #1 WR.

    Marques Colston anyone?

    2006 1038 8 tds
    2007 1202 11 tds
    2008 760 5 tds (injured)
    2009 1074 9 tds
     
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