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Religion is good for your health

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by Miamian, Apr 12, 2009.

  1. Miamian

    Miamian Senior Member

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    http://www.miamiherald.com/news/more-info/story/995983.html

     
  2. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Doesn't surprise me, though in jest at least, we are talking about Mississippi!
     
  3. Miamian

    Miamian Senior Member

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    My quote was a bit misleading. Mississippi is one of the locales mentioned, it's much more global in scope.
     
  4. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    It does make a mockery of the sterotype of religious faith = intolerance doesn't it?
     
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  5. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I did see a study once on happiness that differentiated between faiths. While overall people benefitted from belonging to almost any religion, those that were intolerant of other faiths were much less happy. I think the wording they used was "religions that believed that people of different faiths would go to some sort of hell" or words to that effect.

    edit: Here's the link to the study http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/2/4/0/1/9/pages240197/p240197-17.php

    The conclusion was that beliefs that emphasized the positive side of spirituality tend to increase subjective well being while beliefs that emphasize the negative side appear to decrease subjective well being.

    For Catholics specifically, the belief in hell was the only negatively correlated belief.

    IIRC the biggest positively correlated factor for every religion was service to others.
     
  6. Lt Dan

    Lt Dan Season Ticket Holder

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    don't buy it
     
  7. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That is because we are wired to be happy when we help people
     
  8. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    To quote Coleman in "Trading Places"....

    "I believe religion is a good thing...taken in moderation, of course."

    :wink2:
     
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  9. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I agree and I believe the other end of the spectrum applies as well. If you think you're better than others or are "chosen" or any other designation that makes you believe you will end up in a better place than others b/c of their beliefs you are hurting you're own happiness.
     
  10. Miamian

    Miamian Senior Member

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    I take exception to that comment as it is clearly directed at Judaism. It is quite likely that you believe the anti-Semitic propaganda that purports to paint Jews as better than others. It is just that: propaganda. If you read the Bible you will read where G-d told Moses that he chose the Jews to be a "nation of ministers" and "a light unto the nations." That does not mean that Jews are superior. What it means is that G-d holds Jews to a higher standard than others and Jews must hold themselves to a higher standard as well.
     
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  11. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    Maybe I'm being naive, but how is that any different?
     
  12. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    While I think Miamian can answer this for himself, let me give you my opinion. To say someone or some group is INHERANTLY superior is wrong. To say a group is held to a different standard is not the same thing.

    Clergy are held to a higher ethical standard by society, law enforcement is held to a higher criminal standard, teachers are often held to a higher moral standard, etc.

    Within our tradition there are some things that are allowed of lay folks that are not permitted for the clergy because we are to be exemplary models of the one standard God expects of all.

    Judaism sees itself as a "nation of priests to serve God" therefore asking of themselves that their actions bespeak their intentions.

    The distinction may be subtle but it is important. I hope I am close.
     
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  13. Miamian

    Miamian Senior Member

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    Could not have said it better myself.
     
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  14. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    It was not directed solely at Judaism. Judaism is just one of many religions that see their people as "chosen". My upbringing points me to Catholicism first but after studying many religions they are no worse than many others, Judaism included. And by "worse" I mean that I think it's wrong to separate people into groups and pro-port that one group is "better" than another or that one group will go to a "better place" than another simply b/c of their beliefs.

    And being held to a higher standard by God or whomever is only done for those who "know better" or "are better" at least in their own minds. People are not "chosen" by random lottery. They are not "chosen" b/c they were exactly like everybody else. The idea behind any religion that believes their people are "chosen" is that they are special in some way.
     
  15. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    But why are those groups held to a higher standard? They are all alleged to have some higher training or education or something else that sets them apart. In other words they are "better" or "know better" in some way. If you feel you have to serve as an example for others it's b/c you believe that they need one.
     
  16. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I think with the bolded portion I am beginning to understand what you are driving at. Is your contention that all people are equal?

    While I would agree that in value before God, according to my tradition, all have equal value before God, I would argue from the point of view of my sacred texts and personal observation that not everyone is gifted in the same way.

    Again from my perspective, we are "blessed to be a blessing" to others. Keep in mind that in all the examples I gave it is the office that carries the responsibility not merely the person. I would argue that any vocation is a calling and carries with it expectations and responsibilities that it can not ignore.

    The point of view of a faith tradition is to espouse a "better way" because, we believe, it enhances life and relationships. I would argue from observation that while evils have often been done in the name of a faith, lack of faith has many of the same excesses and horrors attached to it as well.
     
  17. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Close. My contention is that all beliefs are equal. There are some basics which can be pretty much summed up as "love one another", but beyond that the differences are merely academic. According to the religions I called out above Pagan is going to hell. It doesn't matter if he's the kindest, most loving person on the planet. He's going to hell b/c he picked the wrong God.

    IMO it's nonsense to believe that come judgment day (if there is one) everybody will stand before God, be separated into religions or denominations, Catholics over there, Jews over there, Bhuddists over there, etc. Then God, probably accompanied by some kind of game show type music , will make his big reveal, "the .....Mormons were right" or whomever. "All the rest of you who were good people, I'm sorry you picked the wrong God, but thanks for playing, better luck next time." I would like to think that God's plan is a bit less cheesy.

    Now even though I find that belief nonsense, I don't think anybody is doomed to eternal damnation b/c of it. And I never say that my belief is superior to theirs. I believe what I believe but I don't go around telling people that my God is greater than their God. (BTW this also includes not believing in any god). It's just that their belief doesn't work for me. If it works for them great and I'll defend their right to have that belief. But I won't defend their right to be intolerant of the beliefs of others.

    I think that intolerance is why there have been so many evils done in the name of God. I agree with you that "faith" is a good thing a "better way" that enhances life and relationships. What I don't agree with is that your faith or Miamian's Faith or Pagan's faith or even my faith is the "best way" or the "only way" for everybody.
     
  18. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    Yea, I seem to hear that often. :wink2:
     
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  19. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    OK, now I am closer to understanding your point of view.

    If you check my posts in the past I have come at this in a different way than you are suggesting. Let me try and summarize it here.

    Implicit in any belief system is the understanding that the belief is "right" otherwise why hold it? Where I think folks make a mistake is saying "therefore another's is wrong". I try hard to avoid that pitfall though I do not always succeed. It is again a fine point but here, I believe, an essential one. I think both Miamian and Pagan from their different perspectives have stayed away from straying over that line in this forum pretty well.

    If folks hold to their faith system even if it means public proclamation but refrain from condemnation then I think we are better off. That doesn't preclude someone from debating, proselytizing, or preaching; but it does keep me from proclaiming damnation (which I understand to be God's job not mine anyway).

    I too get seriously bent out of shape when folks tell me that I have the wrong i dotted or the wrong t crossed. That is especially true when folks contend that since my understanding of the Christian faith is different than there's that I am wrong. It has happened a couple of times in this forum and I have occasionally "cooked off". It pushes all my buttons!

    On a related note, I would ask you to look at your first sentence which I have bolded. If you are contending that all faiths have a similar moral code, then I would generally agree with you. But if you are saying all faiths have a similar understanding of how one interacts with their god or why one approaches a certain moral position, then I would disagree with you from an academic point of view. For example, Christianity would talk about good works as a response to God's love while for Islam, acts of charity are required and earn righteousness. Not to argue one is better than the other (I have made my choice for many and varied reasons) but they are, it would seem, fundamentally different.

    It may be though that the similarity of maral codes helps address what the research in the original article of this thread was picking up on, I don't know?

    Does that help explain my point of view?
     
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  20. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    it must just bounce of you now huh?
     
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  21. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I can be honest, I do not necessarily believe my beliefs are right. It is my belief is the day I believe I am right is the day I have created and started to follow a religion.

    My beliefs work for me, that is why I hold them. I am open to them being completely wrong and not working for me a week from now and having completely different beliefs. If my beliefs can change, how can they be "right"? Would that not mean that my beliefs were "wrong" a few years ago or "wrong" in the future?
     
  22. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    It helps a bit, but I don't think I did a good enough job explaining my point of view.

    The first part I bolded is about being "right". Like Dupree, I can't say my beliefs are "right". I had a crisis of faith about 6 or 7 years ago related to my belief in Jesus Christ as the savior. I had been studying his life and I started doubting many of the accounts I had been taught earlier. Without going into too many specifics, I found it plausible that he in fact hadn't been a savior and that the alleged statements and acts by him were fictitious and created after the fact. The conclusion I eventually came to is that it doesn't matter if he is or isn't the savior. All that mattered was that I still believed in the core of his teachings. So I am comfortable with the fact that I may or may not be "right".

    The second part I bolded refers to the equality of faiths. I'm not saying they are equal in how they interact with their god or the academics of the "why" in their faith. I'm saying that they have equal value. I have caveats on that mainly around hurting others. But if your beliefs don't hurt others than I feel they have as much value as my own.

    As for proselytizing, I think it crosses the line into saying "you are wrong". As does the idea that one group is "saved" or "chosen" b/c of which god they believe in b/c you can't be "saved" or "chosen" unless there are others who aren't "saved or "chosen". Once you divide the groups that way I think it's impossible to not believe one is "better" than the other.
     
  23. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Thank you for your clarification. I would not have thought that way.

    That would not be the way I define beliefs, for me that would be (and this is rendered without any perjorative value) as a system of rationalizations or justifications. If you submit to no external authority they would not for me, be beliefs.

    Please I do not intend to sound negative and apologize if I do. For me, when I use the phrases beliefs or faith practices, they are answerable to a higher, external authority. I think here we are using the same language but meaning substantially different things.



    You sound very Jeffersoinian. He refused to believe in any diety as such but thought Jesus' teaching were a good moral foundation for the world.

    Since you don't believe Jesus is a "savior" then I assume you have no belief in any life beyond this one? Or have you created a structure of your own devising?

    I find beliefs that do not have a fixed, external, community filtered structure to be unsatisfing so they don't work for me.

    I am glad you are happy in your beliefs or whatever we could agree to call them. I would disagree with them but defend your right to hold them.

    I don't agree and that may be all the further we can go. You came to your beliefs through introspection and anaylsis, right? For me proselytizing is sharing information so others may come do the same as you have done. I am unashamed to say that what I preach has worked for me and others and thus offer to share that with the ones I am speaking to. I use no clubs and try to allow the force of my logic to carry the day. We may simply have to agree to disagrree about this one.
     
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  24. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Even with you being answerable to a higher and external authority, your beliefs are still interpreted and acted out by you.

    From what little I know of you, I am assuming that your relationship to your God is one that has matured. If you were to have a conversation with yourself 10 years ago about your relationship to your God, would you and 10 year younger you have exactly the same thoughts and belief structure, even with the fact that their is an external authority?

    Would that make the you 10 years ago "wrong" if they were?

    If you believe that your beliefs or faith practices are "right" then like me you have a system of rationalizations and justifications. With or without an external authority. The feeling of rightness is a rationalization and a justification by itself.
     
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  25. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    Always has...since I don't believe in the devil or hell. :wink2:
     
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  26. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    :hi5:

    Me either.
     
  27. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I did a poor job of explaining that part. I do believe in Christ as a Savior. My crisis of faith just forced me to examine my faith closer. I didn't change my mind about Christ, I just recognized that alternative understandings of the events of those times were plausible and also reasonable. My conclusion was that even if I were wrong about Christ the important part was his teachings.

    As for the rest, I agree. It's about explaining not convincing or winning an argument.
     
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  28. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    The difference between my make-up from age 46 to my current 56 is not very significant! :yes: Now if you were to go back further, then some have matured as you rightly suggested and some were wrong.

    Keep in mind that I never said nor have I believed since puberty that it was my beliefs that "saved" me. I am not sure if that is one of your assumptions here or not?

    Your arguments are well developed and perhaps we have gotten to a metaphyshical point that is as far as we can go.

    The only point I was trying to make at the end was a distinction between a set of beliefs were are purely self generated and self policed versus a set which stands the test of community. I find the latter more fulfilling because it allows an external check on my reasoning. If you do not, so be it.

    Best wishes!
     
  29. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Thank you, this is a bit clearer.

    I have lost both parents, one to cancer and the other to a stroke. And I lost my first wife also to cancer. Certainly through all that and more I have had my crisises of faith as well. They have honed my beliefs and brought others into focus.

    Yes some of the details of belief have softened and the need for "accuracy" is greatly diminished in me. Also seeing some of the sites in Israel and hearing the locals talk about disputes over "Holy sites" which have raged since the time of Jesus have modified and diminished my need to explain everything.

    I wish you well in your journey and am glad we had a chance to share.

    Peace be with you
     
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  30. Miamian

    Miamian Senior Member

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    You don't get it. There is nothing to suggest that anyone is "better" or "worse" than anyone else. You are imposing your own perspective onto another belief system.

    The idea that Jews are special is actually true, in a way, because as I stated above G-d's message to Moses was that the Jews are to be a nation of ministers. That's in the Bible. If you disagree, then your beef is with G-d.
     
  31. Miamian

    Miamian Senior Member

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    What do you mean, "know better?" The Ten Commandments form the basis of morality for the entirety of Western Civilization. We all have a sense of what is moral and not. Religious Jews learn Gmara which sets out rules for just about everything. I'm sure that others do something similar.
     
  32. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    No, by beef is with the bible. It is a fact that what was and what wasn't in the bible was decided by political interests long after the individual books were written. It is also a fact that the books that were put in were edited by those same political interests. Some were made shorter and some were made longer. You can believe that what those political interests came up with represent the word of God, but I don't.

    And what I bolded there is my beef with many religions that hold there followers above others. IMO most of the world's ills can be attributed to one group deciding that they are more "special" than another group.
     
  33. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I mean that any group that decides that their interpretation of what is and isn't moral is better than another groups interpretation is being elitist. They are deciding that they "know better".
     
  34. Miamian

    Miamian Senior Member

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    Here again you insist on interpreting a word to mean something that it doesn't. "Saved" and "Chosen" are different things. "Chosen" does not mean that G-d save Jews and not others.
     
  35. Miamian

    Miamian Senior Member

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    Jews believe that the Torah is the same now as when it was received at Mt. Sinai. If you insist on stating otherwise then you are, in effect, claiming that my beliefs are wrong, something which you said that crosses a line.
     
  36. Miamian

    Miamian Senior Member

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    You are the only one who is stating that. No one else has suggested such a thing.
     
  37. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That surprises me. I have yet experienced being 46 and turning 56 though. I wonder if you ask people who have known you in the last 10 years if you would be surprised or not.

    Best wishes to you as well! :)
     
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  38. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Great question, I don't know?????

    There are many things about me which are undoubtedly different today than ten years ago though I would guess the way I believe and practice my beliefs were set somewhat earlier. Having lived through as much death around me as I have in the past ten years, one thing is for sure, I sweat the small stuff a whole lot less now than before and likewise I understand a whole lot more to BE small stuff!
     
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  39. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I am not sure I would use "fact" in the places you do. If you are refering to the Councils of Nicea and Jamnia, etc. I think some modern scholarship has gone overboard on what happened there and what didn't. Other than Luke, which clearly had two circulating versions in its earliest days, there is very little manuscript evidence to support some of those theories.

    I am of the opinion that insofar as Christianity is concerned, the creeds established at Nicea, etc., in my opinion led to the establishment of canon over a fifty year period in general practice and not as much by political pronoucment as modern hstorians would suggest. How else do you account for the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas not making the canon after Nicea had originally approved them?

    Your conclusions have some merit to be sure, but I am not sure I would weight them as heavily as you are weighting them. It is ultimately unknowable after all, though a great subject for debate and PhD dissertations!
     
  40. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying I don't believe the same. There is a difference. I am not claiming that I am more "special" than you. I am not claiming that you need my example. I am also not claiming that you will burn in hell b/c you believe differently.
     

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