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Does Morals = Religion Or Does Religion=Morals

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by sking29, Aug 1, 2008.

  1. sking29

    sking29 What it takes to be cool

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    Okay this forum has been pretty dead as of late...much to my dismay. So I figured I would liven it up with this little topic I saw on another site. Basically it's as my title says; "Does Morals = Religon Or Does Religion = Morals." Now when I say morals I mean values, mores, etc. it's all up to you and I think you get my point.

    Pretty interesting topic that gets a lot of mixed results.

    I'll start. Basically because I think we are instinctual beings and thus being instinctual we have it ingrained in us that we are social beings (we like to run in packs so to say). Being social beings we do things to co-exist thus at an early developmental stage I think humans developed their first moral system so that they could co-exist. Thus early humans realized that killing was wrong (as I'm sure killing another's father meant retaliation), communicating in the wrong way was wrong (think of it as swearing today), etc. Now as we developed we continued to develop these morals, values, etc. (for co-existing) and as they became more developed we developed the ubber moral institution; an early form of religion. Now as time developed further and humans began examining their existence this is where deities were assigned and they took up the role as the giver of these morals, values, etc. and instincts were forgotten about (basically we were out thinking ourselves). Thus it is my opinion that morals, values, etc. created religion not the other way around. From that we can see that religion is contained within morals, values, etc. and that morals, values, etc. could exist outside of religion as separate entities. Therefore morals = religion.

    All that being said I'm a religious person so how does that one work. :wink2:

    Questions, suggestions, criticisms, and your replies are encouraged/welcomed.

    Hopefully this may revive this forum.
     
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  2. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    I thank you for the post even if I am somewhat in disagreement. Since I leave Sunday for a week's vacation, I will be interested in what this looks like when I get back.

    For me of course religion creates and informs values/morals. Your account is, however, pretty much the way an anthropologist would view things.

    Given how early religion took hold, indeed, monotheistic worship of "Ha-Shem" the nameless one of the desert (later identified as Yahweh) is late stone, early bronze age, I would still hold out for a very early revelation or personal experiance with God.

    In addition, "Religion" involves far more than just a moral compass. Religion at its core is about relationship with God and others. I suppose that would require an ethical system to work but I think morals is more of a subset of religion than equal to it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2008
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  3. sking29

    sking29 What it takes to be cool

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    Religion does involve more than a moral compass but the topic I had seen on another site dealt with the morals discussion. Like I said this can pretty much be a discussion that people can diverge from that however they wish as long as they keep the general idea of it all in mind. This thread is basically about how we co-exist with one another socially to create society and in order to co-exist there are rules we must follow. Those rules I approached as morals, values, etc. but everyone else please do with it as you wish.

    Plus I'll use this as a learning experience as people will school me on my knowledge and tell me where I am an idiot at. :up:
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2008
  4. DonShula84

    DonShula84 Moderator Luxury Box

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    There is a book by Marc Hauser called Moral Minds: How Nature Designed our Universal Sense of Right and Wrong. I havent read it but Richard Dawkins talks a lot about it in The God Delusion.

    It is essentially a darwinistic approach to answering this question, where he uses evolution to show that all humans have a moral code, so to speak, ingrained in them. He did studies where he'd have people answer a range of questions on morality to try and discover any commonality between the participants. He did the same study across cultures, so one cant say it is just America's Christian culture that's to some degree ingrained in all of us at a young age. Tribes native to the Amazon who have really no Christian influence, and Americans have a similar moral code that he argues was created through evolution, not religion. To say our morals come from religion seems rather ridiculous to me and Hauser seems to be onto something that demonstrates that we get them from another source.
     
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  5. SkapePhin

    SkapePhin sigpicz.blogspot.com

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    I took a course on Evolutionary Psychology in college. It was one of my favorite courses and helped solidify some of my beliefs on things..

    http://www.amazon.com/Evolutionary-...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217631684&sr=8-1

    This is the text book.. If you are interested in these questions, I would highly recommending studying evolutionary psychology.. It all makes perfect sense, and it is backed up by observational data.. Humans are just like any other creature.. We are products of biology and environment just as much as any other animal.

    Why do most mammals protect their young? Is it some form of inate morality? Or is it survival? Morality IS survival.. Survival of one's genes, and survival of a species.. "Morality" came first, religion came second. Of course, things do change,and nothing is static, so what was once "moral" may no longer be neccesary, and what might be "moral" in one environment, may not apply in another.. However, the largest and most important moral behaviors, such as "though shalt not kill" are universal.. Its part of our unspoken social contract.. These social contracts are only broken when the gains outweigh the losses..

    Morality can always be distilled to the golden rule.. "Do unto others as you would like have done unto thyself"
     
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  6. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I've always seen religion as being Morality + other rules/beliefs. Those other rules/beliefs are what has soured me on most religions.
     
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  7. quelonio

    quelonio Season Ticket Holder

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    Religion equals community. And in order to have community you need a certain ethical and moral construct. So religion becomes that ethical and moral construct.

    But before men ever believed in a higher being, men created communities based on the idea of family. So family and how you behave in family became the begining of a set of morals. It is in community and our need to live in community that we create a morality that suits that community. Religion is just one of the ways to create that community
     
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  8. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Yea, I have plenty of morals and values, but my religious interest doesn't go beyond a skosh of interest in pastafarianism.
     
  9. JCowScot

    JCowScot So funky the dead dance

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    If this is true, how do you define 'morality' then??? What is the scale/qualifier/dividing line?? Is it simple cultural context?? If that's the case, then we have no right to call into question the 'morality' of Nazism, Fascism, radical Islam or the theocracy of Roman Catholicism during the Inquisition (1500's?). Different cultures, different social mores, different set of rules.

    Again, if that's the case, then 'good' and 'bad' become meaningless, as one is simply acting/reacting on instinct and/or social constructs. If 'morality' is survival, then why would Buddhism go so far as to hold every living thing sacred and not to be killed-even the tiger that ends up eating you?? Or why would Christianity espouse non-violence/non-retaliation, even to the point of being put to death in some of the most horrifying ways, simply because they would not renounce a God that in your world, they had created?? That is not survival. That is not self-preservation. That goes against every natural human instinct that we have.

    Morality did not begat religion. Nor does religion begat morals, as there are plenty of people/societies that have created religious worldviews that suit their version of 'morality'. It is religion that is the compass, or reference point, that gives mankind the ability to define ideas of 'good' and 'evil', 'right' and 'wrong'. Without it, 'morality' has no way to define itself outside of the individual.

    So, in a roundabout way, I would say- neither.
     
  10. Lt Dan

    Lt Dan Season Ticket Holder

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    C) None of the above
     
  11. SkapePhin

    SkapePhin sigpicz.blogspot.com

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    Morality can be simply defined as partaking in behaviors that do not negatively affect other humans.. And again, morality is only an issue for us because of consciousness.

    Would you characterize any other animal as being capable of being immoral? Is a great white shark immoral for eating other sentient beings?

    Unfortunately, it seems like with all our "morality", we are still the most depraved group of beings to roam the Earth.. Its consciousness that is the problem.. One of nature's worst mistakes. Consciousness throws a giant monkey wrench into the perfection that is the natural order of things..

    But as for your point, Buddhism isnt so much concerned with an overarching moral code. It is more of a philosophy for cleansing the self of all negative energy. If you really analyze it, it is a philosophy of suicide. Its all about killing the ego, killing individuality, killing thought, killing consciousness. Zen is to be completely without thought. No attachments, No pain, Only peace.

    Any morality which completely rules out the possibility of self-defense and self-preservation (not just on an individual level, but on a family/species level) really isn't much of a moral philosophy.

    Fact is, any action that infringes upon another's right to survival is an immoral action.. Therefore, you could never characterize Nazis or Agents of the Inquisition as acting morally.

    Some of the best quotes I have found on the issue of morality come from the esteemed Science fiction author Robert Anson Heinlein.

     
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  12. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I ran across a study that seemed on point. The basic conclusion was:

    "What is remarkable is that people with different backgrounds, including atheists and those of faith, respond in the same way."

    Is Morality Natural? | Newsweek Health for Life | Newsweek.com

    The article certainly supports the concept that morality is innate and not based on any religion.
     
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  13. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    If you consider what the Bible says, it says that God created man "in his image." That has been widely agreed to mean that we were created as three part beings, similar to the Holy Trinity. That is, there is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Likewise, we have body, soul, and spirit. The body is our physical body, our soul is the eternal part of the human, and the spirit is who we are...our consciesness...our conscience. If you think about it like that, under the idea that God has put a conscience in every one of us, it shouldn't surprise anyone that people from many different cultures, from many places across the globe, have the same basic beliefs when it comes to morality. Also, if you think about it Biblically, we all have a basic, common ancestor: Adam...so, his beliefs would have been passed to his children, and to his children's children, and so on and so forth....up to the Flood. After the Flood, Noah's family would have started it all again. This also explains, to some extent, why so many cultures share legends and stories that are remarkably similar, even though separated by thousands of miles.
     
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  14. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    i never really come in here, but this thread interested me.

    i think morals and religion aren't necessarily correlated. sure, many religions teach and preach that people have good morals and whatnot... but i know many people who are not religious at all who have good values and morals, myself included. So i'd say that entire argument is bunk simply on the fact that you don't have to be religious to have morals.

    in fact if you wanted to get radical, you could even cite religion as being an enemy (in some regards) of morals. I'm not going to call out any specific religion, but if you look at the history of the world, more wars were started in the name of some religious right (extremist or not) than any other singular cause..... you have the crusades hundreds of years ago to (most recently) suicide bombings (in many cases of innocent people).

    There are certainly many good religions out there that do preach we do good by each other and "do unto others", etc, but i would hesitate to use the word "religion" in general as it is all-encompassing and does (unfortunately) include the dregs of the zealot world.

    i'm not anti-religion at all, and i apologize in advance if i come off that way... i'd like to consider myself a realist and observist and am speaking off my own observations about history and what is going on in the world today. :up:

    good discussion
     
  15. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Well written and thought out. I may disagree but I certainly understand your position.

    I do want to pick on the phrase I highlighted for a moment. It is a comment that is thrown around with some ease by lots of people and I want to take exception to it. While religion has been used often to rationalize actions, wars have almost always occured because one side desires the economic advantages of the other. Wars are about resource acquistion, land, trade, or naked power ambitions. One side may trot out a religious defense but even a cursory view of the circumstances from an historical perspective will show the call upon religion to be most often a smoke screen. Tyrants will invoke lots of ideas to embelish their causes and faith banners of any stripe should not be sullied by their efforts.

    I do want to note you did say name of religion and thus I am not sure but you may even agree with my codicil to your argument, Tex??

    Thanks for the oppurtunity to mount my soapbox!
     
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  16. sking29

    sking29 What it takes to be cool

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    Truly if there were more minds like those in this discussion the world would have a much better understanding of religion. :up:
     
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  17. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    i didn't say any names because i don't want it to sound like i'm singling anyone out or that i have an agenda... but you guys know what i'm talking about.

    and while i think in many cases you are correct about other motives, if you take it to the lowest-level it IS belief system. you think the suicide bomber individual cares about the general political climate, or do you think he's hoping to please Allah and get to those virgins faster? (a little levity there, not personal or serious)

    and the crusades is a great example... no politics at all, strictly belief. You could even talk about Hitler and his hatred for jews... certainly non-jews were prosecuted as well, but if you were jewish, you were targeted, simply because of your religion.

    that really is neither here nor there with the overall argument of this thread though.

    i will re-iterate that i would consider myself an atheist, but i do believe i have great morals. I live my life by the "do unto others" ideology, and i try to be nice & kind to everyone.

    that said, i do understand that many religions do press their constituents to become better people, and i definitely appreciate that! (case in point: mormons. while i don't understand how someone can buy into the whole LDS gospel, i DO appreciate how good those people are. I have had the pleasure of knowing a lot of LDS people in my life (including some troops i had under me), and they were some of the smartest, hardest-working people i've ever had the pleasure of working with.... NOTHING but good experiences with LDS.... so while i think its somewhat off the deep end as far as belief system, i DO appreciate how they "train" their people. ;)
     
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  18. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Perhaps, then again it is said that "God's Laws are written on the human heart"

    Meaning such a morality can be universal, the source of such morality would be God.

    For myself, Sking's question is in a way a bit to general, it could be any religion, and outside of the 10 Commandments, morality could be whatever a culture deems it to be.

    The more interesting question is "Does Intellect equal Morality"?

    Mankind has an intellect, but does that mean that Morality will naturally be the paradigm even to the individual's detriment?
     
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  19. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    An excellent question! In Genesis the fall of humanity is because they wished to know "good and evil", that is they desired to be God (and thus by definition usurp God). Thus it is said only humanity has a conscience.
     
  20. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I guess for me the question is "Is God found in any religion?" I agree that he can be found in the human heart.
     

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